Erin Lee Carr and Ta-Nehisi Coates Remember David Carr
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Documentary filmmaker Erin Lee Carr remembers her father, legendary journalist David Carr, in a moving new memoir, All That You Leave Behind. Erin Lee Carr, went looking for support and comfort in the lifetime of correspondence that they had shared. She was also looking for clues—advice the famous mentor, journalist, and father might have to offer on how to cope with her devastating loss, and continue on with her life and career. Erin Lee Carr will be joined by one of her father’s admiring mentees, Ta-Nehisi Coates, to discuss the legacy David Carr has left for his family, the journalistic community, and readers at large.
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
[ Music ]
>> You're listening to Library Talks, a podcast from the New York Public Library. I'm your host, Aiden Flax-Clark.
[ Music ]
Today on the show is Erin Lee Carr. Erin Lee Carr is a documentary film maker and she's also the author of a new book called All That You Leave Behind. It's a memoir of her and her father, who is a very well-known journalist, David Carr, who wrote primarily for the New York Times. Carr died unexpectedly in 2015. One of the ways that Erin Lee Carr grappled with her grief was through writing and this book, which tells the story of her and her father through their communications, their emails, their letters, their text messages. Erin came by the library to talk about the book with Ta-Nehisi Coates, who used to work for David Carr at the Washington City Paper where Carr mentored a lot of well-known journalists.
[ Applause ]
>> Wow, thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you. For my new book [laughter].
>> It's excellent.
>> I have known Erin Carr for-- okay, this is-- I'm 43, I've known Erin Carr for 23 years. I started working for her father at Washington City Paper when I was 20 years old, and if I had to list the most consequential people in my life I think like after my parents and after my wife, and maybe after my kid, I'm not so sure about that [laughter]. Maybe after my kid, it would-- it would be David Carr. And so, I think reading Erin's book it was like, you know, there's a part of you that's reading it as a reader. But when you know the person, and not just when you know the person, when it's somebody for whom you-- you-- you just couldn't imagine your life without. I couldn't imagine myself as a writer if I had not met David Carr. David Carr was the first person who ever believed in me. So there was-- there was always like two sides of me reading the book; there was, you know, the actual person, you know, sitting there reading the story, but then there was the person reading it almost as like a little brought, you know, it's like reading about my older brother. And there was so much in the book in terms of how he dealt with you and how he talked to you.
>> Woo.
>> Which is a big subject in the book. That-- that was familiar. And, you know, one of the things we were talking about backstage was whether people could actually get away with the kind of mentorship style that David Carr had today. Not sure they could. But to give a taste of that I asked Erin actually to read from this, so we'll-- we'll just give a little-- I think this actually offers the spirit of David Carr pretty well, or at least part of it, and Erin, I have it marked with a asterisk here and then marked of, you know, at the end here. And if you want to set the scene you can.
>> Sure. Really jumping into the most embarrassing part of the book, thank you Ta-Nehisi [laughter]. Wow. This is gorgeous.
>> I'm just setting a timer here, too. I'm not like texting.
>> He's just on his phone.
>> I don't want anybody--
>> So, my dad, incredible father, teacher, mentor, boss, and so this book is like if you want to be mentored by David Carr. And I think that we are now-- we are about to go into my first day at my internship and it was at Fox Searchlight. On the first day of my internship I woke up early to find a-- find an outfit. Jeans and a t-shirt and a T.J.Maxx blazer seemed best. I didn't have any fancy shoes so Converse would have to suffice. I studied myself in the mirror. My dyed blonde hair was pulled back in a way that hid my eyebrow piercing. I thought I-- thank you. I thought I looked [laughter]-- I thought I looked fine. I figured it was okay to skip the shower and allow extra time for coffee and breakfast. To mark the occasion my dad said he would drive us up into the city. Usually I would be relegated to the DeCamp 66, a New Jersey to midtown express, where talking or any sort of movement was frowned upon [laughter]. Instead of sitting among strangers on a heavily air-conditioned bus, I would be able to prep for the day with my dad. I could tell he was on edge the second we got in the car. I asked him what his day looked like. He said, nope, we're going to talk about you. He said my outfit needed work. He then asked if I had showered. I responded defensively, no, I showered last night, geeze. He thought for this for-- he thought on this for a second and told me, you are neither smart enough nor pretty enough to not shower every day [laughter]. Thanks for laughing. It was horrendous. I was taken aback. I'd never given a lot of thought to how I looked, but it-- before because I thought it didn't matter. Apparently, it mattered now. He informed me that I was about to act as his representative in New York's small media fishbowl and the least I could do is put in a modecome of effort. My dad lit a cigarette and blew a long stream of smoke out of the window as he weaved between cars. Let's talk about Fox Searchlight. He quizzed me on who was the president of the company. My face instantly turned red and I told him quietly that I didn't know. I know the head of the department though, I interjected, Diana Loomis, Senior Vice President of Fox Searchlight Publicity. I'd done a cursory Google search as per his advice. My dad launched into the background on the president and what he knew about the company. Sorry. Before telling me he was disappointed in the sub-standard job I had done in preparing myself both physically and mentally for the job. He went down a laundry list of things I should know how to do before an interview. Bring a notebook, do two or three hours of research before the meeting, arrive early, offer to pay the check, know their background and have questions prepared and above all, do your fucking homework. My face flushed again. I felt so stupid and small. I responded, but instead-- I didn't respond, but instead let his reprimand sit there in the car between us. He eventually plugged in his iPod and let the music blare. The tension remained throughout the ride. We parked the car at the garage on Eighth Avenue near his office and we walked on the street and he put his arm around me and told me he loved me. That was the thing about his flashes of anger or disappointment, they always ended in a hug.
>> Erin--
[ Applause ]
I want to ask you two things about that story. Can we focus on that-- that-- that quote; you are neither-- what is it, you are neither pretty enough, nor smart enough to not take showers or something-- something to [laughter]--
>> Again, whoa.
>> Something to that affect. It was more poetic.
>> I showered today. Please clap.
[ Applause ]
>> But, you know, I was-- I was prepping today, you know, for our talk and I read that-- I actually read that to my wife, and you know, who knew Carr, she busts out laughing. You know, but I was like but isn't this a little inappropriate, like can you actually-- and what she said was no, she said, because who is actually pretty enough and smart enough to not shower? Who is that? Who is that person [laughter]? And yet-- and yet, you know, I wonder, you know, just going back to the original question, like when you wrote that and when you thought back on it, did you feel like that was something that should be said within the boundaries of-- of your relationship? Like there's a lot of that in the book, moments of, okay, is this actually helping or not.
>> Yeah, I mean, I think that it was painful because there are tremendous amounts of times that he told me how much he adored me, how beautiful I was, how brilliant I was. I think he would say borderline brilliant was the phrase [laughter]. And, you know-- but, you know, so for me to cherry pick that moment.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And in a way put him on blast for giving me very simple reprimand. Just look good when you have your first day. You know, but I think that it really-- what I loved about was that his, like, sort of, sharpness in that moment, but then the love at the end. And so, now, every day, every time, before an interview, or before I come, you know, do a talk, just carefully get myself ready, think about-- think about him. I mean it's just like I always thought it was very anti-feminist to care about what you looked like.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> But it's kind of-- the key word there is care.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> I care about what I'm doing today; I'm putting myself together.
>> And in his mind that part was representative of a-- of an entire whole, right, like an entire idea of being prepared. Was it effective? Was that effective?
>> It certain was.
>> Yeah [laughter].
>> You know, I think that, you know, we both have been on the receiving end of the intense David Carr.
>> Yes.
>> Language train.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> As many in this room may have experienced, and I think that it-- it's-- it strikes you.
>> Right.
>> You remember it. I think that it's-- it's just like-- it's almost like you can't forget it when the criticism comes out because you're like, oh, I never want to do that again.
>> Yeah. I mean one of the things that come-- I think, came across in the book and how I always perceived him is he was a man of, in terms of a mentorship, well and again I think like that's a large thread throughout the book, like he was a man of extremes, like if you did good you were the greatest thing that ever happened, and if you didn't, you were the lowest thing that-- that ever happened. And I felt like he really exploited that, not necessarily to his benefit but maybe to-- if you were working for him it was to his benefit, you know, but within the relationship to get you to motivate.
>> Didn't he call his office at City Paper--?
>> Cape Fear.
>> Cape Fear [laughter].
>> Cape Fear. It was--
>> And there was Cape of Good Hope on the other side.
>> The other side, and then there was Cape Fear, Cape Fear was his.
>> Woo.
>> Yeah, Cape Fear. Wow.
>> Every day in the house there was a little bit of cape fear.
>> Yeah. But you know, because he-- he was working with basically kids, like I think the vast majority of the people that he was working for were under 25. Again, it's the 1990s. Back then there's no Twitter, there's no, you know, the whole-- where like what were you going to complain about? Who were you going to tell, you know what I mean? What-- what-- what were you going to do? I didn't know any better, you know, and I-- and-- and-- and, you know, actually backstage we were talking about this, like today-- because I don't think as you reported him there is very much different than how he was as an actual boss. Could a boss in journalism get away with that today?
>> No.
>> That sort of attitude, yeah.
>> I think that, you know-- I think he was a boss and a mentor in a very specific amount of time and I think that, you know, this story you told me about him following you into the elevator and yelling at you.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, there's--
>> Over a copy-editing error [laughter].
>> You know, I think that like-- but then we-- we've lost something great. I mean, I think that I feel disappointed that we-- that style can't be used anymore because people have abused it.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, we need to speak sharply and directly to each other-- without-- without internalizing it and melting.
>> Right.
>> And I think that my-- the tough love that I experienced that's a part of this book made me who I am.
>> Right.
>> Tough love is a part of it.
>> Right. So, you are now a storyteller in your own write. Do you supervise people?
>> Yes [laughter].
>> How are you as a supervisor?
>> I literally told Uda [phonetic] today that I don't think I'm a good manager of people.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I think that I try to have the Carr directness. I also try to be kind. I think that, you know, it's just-- it is a real gift to be able to figure out, like, to spot talent, to nurture talent. You know, I'm 31 so I have some time to figure it out but I think it was very David Carr and very very special.
>> Right. Right. Do you yell?
>> Is anybody in this room that has worked with me, raise your hand. Do I yell?
>> No.
>> Wow.
>> Sheila yells. Sheila's back there.
>> Okay. Alright. Okay. Okay.
>> You know, I think that-- you know, I-- I don't think I need to yell.
>> Right.
>> But I can be sharp.
>> Right. Understood. Understood. So, you know, one of the things that's interesting, you know, to me, is, you know, your chosen mode of storytelling for right now before this book really was, you know, the docu-- documentary format, you know, non-fiction films and you went and wrote a non-fiction book. Was there a reason why you decided to use the book format to explore your dad, as opposed to, you know, the method that you had previously used?
>> so the night he died, which is, I think, very painful for both of us and for our family, I went and I typed his name into my inbox, as a matter of course, and I found the most incredible email from him, that at the time when I got it I knew was special, but after he-- he was lost to us, it was the only way I could hear his voice, and I-- I literally heard him speaking to me. And so, when I-- when I was thinking about how to honor this incredible person, incredibly complicated, lovely, empathic, intense, cape fear man, you know, it was through words. But then there was this huge moment because my dad wrote The Night of the Gun, it's a memoir, it's non-fiction, and he's-- he was a master at the top of his game.
>> Yeah, it's a great book, too.
>> Woo.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I just, in order to-- I-- I-- I wasn't sure, and so, but then trying to think about making a documentary and staring at his face I thought would ruin me, and so, at least with words the words could conjure images, but I could-- I could set it down, you know, I think that-- I don't know, I just thought a book was a fitting tribute to him.
>> Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It just occurred to me right now that I've now-- I had a conversation with him about Night of the Gun and having this conversation with you, just a quick note about your memoir is something. What influence did he have on you as a storyteller, period? So, we talked about him as a mentor, right. You know, is it clear to you that your decision to go into-- actually go into storytelling is-- how much of that is him?
>> Just like most things, I don't know where he ends and I begin. I think that that's what's painful about loss is now that like he-- his-- his-- he remains like a drum beat inside my head. But I did have to start listening to my own voice after he passed because I couldn't call him and ask for his advice. So, I think that in terms of, you know, him turning us into storytellers, like I just think it was so cool that every night when my twin and I and our little sister went to bed, like he read us a story. When we were growing up, we had like-- we-- we read all the time during the summer; what are you reading about, what are you thinking about, what can we talk about at the dinner table with Jill, you know. It was-- it was a family of ideas and I think that being a storyteller was a very natural outgrowth of that, because I could not be a journalist. Like even being in the New York Times building I just feel the shadow of David Carr. So, I think that documentary, one, was where women are powerful.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And two, I get to spend some real time with it. And I get to, sort of, meditate on it.
>> You said where women are powerful, can you explain on that a little bit more?
>> I thought when I-- basically, I was a PA on the set of Girls and I saw all of the people between me and Lena Dunham, very delusional, and I said that's going to take 15 years. There's no way. And that's-- 15 years is a very short amount of time, and so, when I looked at documentary and I, you know, I saw HBO and I knew about Shelia Nevins, I knew about Liz Garbus, you know, Alexandra Pelosi. I just saw these women that were like making their own things and I was like that's it, that's what I want to do; I want to direct those things. So, I think that it sounds pretty ego when I think about it, like, you know, that I just got into documentary film making because I could be powerful in a shorter amount of time.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> Did I say that out loud?
>> No.
>> Did I answer it?
>> No no, no no, no no no.
>> This is bad. I don't know.
>> You wanted to tell your stories. You had stories that you wanted to tell and you didn't want to spend the 15 years waiting for the opportunity to tell those stories, right.
>> Well said.
>> Okay, alright [laughter].
>> Storyteller.
[ Laughter ]
>> No, it's true. That's okay. That's okay. You know, one of the things about David was watching him become a big deal, like from the outside. You know-- you know, I meet him, he's editor at City Pap-- you know, I mean he's Cape Fear, so he's a big deal within the office and he covered the Washington Post and so like, you know, they knew who he was and that sort of thing. But when he came to New York-- and when he came to New York, you know, in that era of, wow, so many magazines that aren't even here, you know, anymore, but-- but at that time for Inside.com it really really changed. I mean he became, you know, New York-- well before that, New York Magazine, Atlantic, New York Times, I mean he became huge and I just wonder when did you perceive that he was not just, you know, an ordinary work a day journalist, that he was something else.
>> I think-- so, we were at South Buy and it was 2011 and we were hanging out. He-- I got an email from him and I was Bcc'd obviously, and he was just like, you know, he was hanging out with Jenna Wortham at the Times and Brian Stelter who worked there at the time and it was like to a dance party.
>> Right.
>> And, so I went there and there at the center of it, and Jill was there too, was like my dad with Beck Guero cranked up and he was like dancing.
>> Yeah.
>> And everyone was just like, yeah, like--
>> Yeah.
>> And it just like-- people-- he was the life of the party and people wanted to talk to him, like people were constantly coming up to him, asking him questions, and so it just was like, you know, as somebody, I'm sober now, like to see him at the center of it all, sober, and like also like enter-- and like, you know, entertaining other people. It was so great and I was like, wait, my dad is really special.
>> Yeah.
>> In more ways than one.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, he was-- South Buy was like-- like, you know, fish to water, like South Buy was his water. He-- he had an intensity and he just absolutely absolutely-- I-- like the first time I came, my God, he was trying to sneak me into parties and it was-- it was unbecoming [laughter]-- But great, you know what I mean, like great in that sort of unbecoming, you know, way. You know. You know, it--
>> The David Carr way.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like pulling you into stuff and what is that street where they like-- there's that, you know, during South Buy there's a street down at Austin where everybody--
>> Sixth Avenue? What is it? Sixth Street. Yeah.
>> It gets really crazy, and like towards the end I really want-- [inaudible] that he wouldn't let you go home. I really wanted to go home and he said, no no no, you-- you have to see this, and we walked down Sixth Street that night, and it was the most insane thing I had ever-- I had absolutely ever seen. So, that was-- you know, it was something about that environment that really got him. He was such a creature of media. And what-- like you had those conversations, you were there, you enjoyed those conversations. You know, you talk about that. What did he get out of that? I mean I-- it was more than gossip, right?
>> You know, it-- I mean it's like what you talked about, it's like frenetic energy, that there-- this was a town that was full of creators and thinkers and posers and losers and winners and they were all together.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And it's like, you know, it's kind of like New York.
>> Yeah.
>> Like-- and so he sent me an email and he said, Austin is a revelation. You have to move here and I have to follow.
>> Yeah, he loved it. He did.
>> And so, I think that it was, you know, I think he just-- he liked talking with people that had new ideas and South Buy was the-- the place to do that, and it was just-- you know, it was a continuation. But in terms of like not letting people go home, that was always-- like he would never go home.
>> Oh man.
>> Like my Uncle Joe and I were talking about our time in New York the other day and we called it the baton death march.
>> Yeah.
>> Like because it was just like--
>> God, it was intense.
>> You know, like we're going to do, you know, the Russian place, then the Dim Sum and then the High Line and then we're going to, you know, talk, we're going to go over here and meet this person.
>> He had this phrase; we did the big.
>> We did the big!
>> We did the big. He said that's what his mother used to say, we did the big, yeah.
>> Joan Carr.
>> He was-- you know, I came up-- you know, one time I came up, you know, to the cabin up in the Adirondacks and his idea of vacation was very different from my idea of vacation [laughter]. His idea of vacation was like all day you-- like my idea was relax, you read a book, you lay back. That was not his. All day you did things. All day you did things. And I, you know, as funny as this is, I have often wondered whether this had any connection to his-- his struggle with addiction, because he was so frenetic, he was so, you know, intense, and I-- I wonder what you-- what you make of that.
>> It's-- it's hard because it's like I never want to speak for him.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> You know. I think I know him, but only he truly knows himself.
>> Right.
>> But, you know, there is an expiration and a thought about, you know, he drove really fast, he ate a ton, he loved smoking cigarettes. You know, there was a-- there was a tendency to go towards the extreme and, you know, I think, yeah, because he had an extreme life and he got sober and he didn't want to outgrow the wild.
>> Right.
>> And, so, I think that that's what made him so good.
>> I know.
>> You know what I mean, like--
>> I know.
>> It's just like his stamina and his like, you know, I remember in like the-- the two weeks before he died he called me and he was doing his column at the New York Times, he was teaching at B.U. and he was like, do you think I should do a podcast? I was like, yeah, I do, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> And so, Ta-Nehisi is shaking his head because it's like we're wondering up here, as somebody who loves him, like did that expedite him no longer being here.
>> Right. Right, because he--
>> I just don't know.
>> Yeah, because he couldn't slow down. He ju-- and I mean I-- at the time I was more like doesn't want to slow down, but thinking about it now I wonder if couldn't was more-- you know, I-- I have to tell you, I didn't have a sense-- I-- my father's side of the family, addiction is big, it's a lot like-- like a large percentage of the people, and so my dad, he does not have addiction issues, moved far away from that, so I had never seen addiction, you know, up close with somebody struggling with addiction, and I think so many times now about the times I was around him and I was drinking or I was doing whatever, it never occurred to me that he was fighting. You know, it was only after-- you see, and what he would not have wanted you to do was not drink a-- like, you know, like he didn't want you altering yourself.
>> He was always pushing you on, get another drink.
>> Yeah. No no no no no. You would come to his house and he would have, you know what I mean, drinks for you. He wouldn't want you all-- but it-- it-- it did not occur to me he was fighting the whole time, you know what I mean, like I-- I didn't see it; I thought he was on top of the world, you know, and it was only, you know, later in talking to him and really after he passed that-- that I got clear on what was going on. But I didn't write the book, so, you know, yet. You know, this is your book, so let's talk about that [laughter]. I'm not going--
>> I mean, addiction is-- is a daily ch--
>> Right.
>> Like addiction--
>> Right.
>> And to surrender or to--
>> Right.
>> To push it off for one more day is a daily choice.
>> And, I think I-- like if I have one regret-- we're going-- I swear, I know I didn't write the book.
>> I wish you did.
>> No, no no, you did just fine. I'm glad I didn't. But I think now he was telling me that if I had-- if I had listened, he was safe from time to time, you know, I'm back at AA meetings, like he would say that. He would tell me. I walked-- I literally what-- I think it was a meeting near his job. I walked with him to that, you know, to that-- to that meeting and I was just like, oh okay, he's just doing what he needs to do to do XYZ. It never really occurred to me, you know, how much of a fight--
>> He didn't let others in on his struggle.
>> Right, no he didn't.
>> I think that--
>> He didn't.
>> I mean--
>> But I could hear it. I feel like looking back on the things that he said that I just chose not to, you know what I mean, or maybe he didn't want me to or whatever, but, you know, as you can probably tell.
>> You were not alone in that, no.
>> Okay. Alright, that's-- that's good to hear. I wonder how you managed, a, the difficulty of writing about this, and b, the difficulty of being not just here but now having to literally promote and sell a book and talk about it. I wonder-- and so let-- let's-- let's break that down a little bit. The period of time between David passing and you making the decision to write the book was how long?
>> I wrote a medium piece the year after he died, the anniversary, and I-- you know, I tried to send it to the New Yorker and they politely said no thank you. And so, I self-published on medium.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And I think that it was just-- it was an 800-word story about, you know, what I had learned in the year following his death.
>> Mm-hmm. And how long before you make the deci-- you say, okay, I think this can be a book?
>> So, you know, I-- it-- Pamela at Random House reached out to me and she said I think this is a book.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And I think at the time I was like I don't know, maybe. You know, centered around his beautiful emails because I knew that there was a ton of emails in there; it was 1946, and most of it was like, hey, pick up your phone, only idiots have full voicemails.
>> Right [laughter].
>> But then others was like, you know, these like-- you know, things like you are who you run with.
>> Yeah.
>> And you-- you are a star and shining brighter every day.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And so, basically, they had me try-- try writing, and then I wrote it in 18 months and it was like full on set the kitchen timer, turn off the internet, get inside the David Carr mindset and let's see what happens. And every time I'd write a sentence, this is bull shit.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> This is terrible.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And I was really, you know, lucky to work with Meg, who helped me figure this out and like what is the B.S. and what is the good and how to make it better and, you know, I am surrounded by powerful women who empower me and that includes my small army of Carr women.
>> Mm-hmm. He said-- he used to say this thing, I was with him a couple times, I asked him about writer's block and he said the cure for writer's block is typing [laughter].
>> How great is that? I love that.
>> It's great. I say it all the time.
>> I have it framed in my apartment.
>> Yeah, it's awesome. Typing.
>> Keep going.
>> Yeah, keep going, man. Keep going.
>> Clear out your voicemail.
>> So, I mean, having to do that though, was-- I-- like I find, often times, like if I'm writing something emotional actually there's a part of me that cuts off from the emotional part of it and goes through, and then it's only after I read back. But at the same time, I've never had to write about a loved one or I should say--
>> You wrote about your dad.
>> I did, but my dad had not passed.
>> Right.
>> And I imagine myself like weeping into the keyboard like as I-- like I-- I just-- I don't-- I don't know that I could make that separation to get the job done. And so, just as a writer, I'm-- I'm interested, you know. What did you do?
>> Oh God, that's tough. You know, I think that I would write and then I would-- I would want instantly to show someone and my ex-boyfriend at the time, he just kind of sat me down, he said this is too painful, I can't do this every day with you.
>> Wow.
>> You know.
>> How'd you feel about that?
>> We broke up.
>> Yeah [laughter]. Yeah.
>> Sorry, I don't think you're here. You're an excellent person, you made the right choice.
>> Yeah. You know what, but that's-- you know what, that's what I would have said. That's terrible. No, that's how you know you're a writer now; see, that's how you know right there. That's-- it's-- I don't-- and I don't know that that's the right thing to say, but, you know, we are who we are.
>> I rea-- I'm getting red.
>> Yeah, I mean no. I mean, I have no problem with you s-- I'm-- you know what I mean, it's just only certain people are built to hear that, you know. So, go ahead, I'm sorry, continue. Was breaking up how you dealt with this? Was that--
>> You know, I-- I-- I want to be with people who can-- who can go there with me.
>> Yeah.
>> And, you know-- you know my best friend read every single chapter.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> You know, that's not her job. She has a full-time job.
>> Yes.
>> And so, I think that, you know, it really was-- I needed-- I just-- I needed someone to be supportive in the way that my dad was supportive.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And because I was just so out on an emotional ledge and I felt like I was going to tip over and I was like I'm not-- I'm not 10 years in a sobriety; I'm a newly sober person.
>> Right.
>> So, I was really frightened that it would cause me to drink again, so I upped the therapy.
>> Okay. I'm sorry, I'm being told we only have 10 minutes left.
>> What?
>> Before we-- no, then we're going to go to questions. It's really, I only have 10 minutes left; that's what I get for my confessionals. You know, one thing I don't want to get lost is David as a crafts person, and did you spend any time going back reading his columns?
>> Yes.
>> There's nothing like it right now. Like you-- we think about oh the guy covered media so then someone else will come in and cover media, but he had this really specific way of doing it. David-- you know, and this was one of the things he told us. You know, City Paper had this whole ethic where you could say nasty things about somebody but you had to call on them, like they couldn't-- you know, it couldn't be like, oh I thought you were going to, you know, say nice things about me and then you-- no no, it had to be a contentious, you know, conversation. And then the piece would be contentious. And at his-- at his best, you know, he did that in the column, I mean-- and, you know, I think one of the more admirable things was here he is working, you know, in this New York media environment where-- where in the world are there people with bigger egos, you know, and I guess he had enough ego, you know, to throw his, you know, elbows and, you know, do-- do-- do whatever he had to do.
>> And I-- and I loved that. Like he would--
>> Yeah.
>> He would go--
>> He was great.
>> To a party and like it was a person that he had like deeply consulted and he like-- you know, I would be like, oh my God, I got to leave, like I got to go eat some pizza and he would just go straight up to the person and just be like, you know.
>> Erin, I'm--
>> What'd you think?
[ Laughter ]
>> Erin, I have to tell this story.
>> Please. That's what we're here for.
>> It's no secret that him and Michael were not best friends. I don't think-- okay.
>> Ooh. No.
>> I was at lunch with David and my son, Samari [phonetic], who might have been nine at the time, nine or ten, and Michael Wolfe comes in and sits down and has-- you know, he's having a lunch with somebody and David tells Samare, you know what I mean-- he s-- I'm not going to repeat what he said, I just-- that's too-- that's too far.
>> It's too horrifying.
>> Yeah, that's actually too far, I'm not going to do that. But we get up to go and I'm feeling like this is so awkward, I'm here with David and Michael. He went right up to Michael Wolfe and talked to him, like just right-- I mean-- you know what I mean, and he-- you know, he just didn't care. Like he absolutely-- and I always wondered like was this because-- listen I've had x number experiences as a young person, you know, I just don't care. I've seen, you know what I mean; I've seen the worst, I just don't care, I can just walk up to you and say whatever. He had tremendous tremendous journalistic courage, you know.
>> And I think that that's what we can take away, like everybody in this room. There is a moment where you-- you hide, or you hide in your cell phone.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And you just say I'm-- I'm not going to confront this person; I'm not going to do it. Think about the David Carr way. Think about locking eyes and, you know, and that is-- that is the-- the-- that's what you should do.
>> Yeah.
>> If you're going-- if you're going to work or write about somebody.
>> Or don't write about it.
>> Or don't write about it.
>> If you're going to do it then, you know, you got to do it. You know, one of the interesting things to me, I know we kind of talked around this a little bit, but, you spend a little bit of time or I guess it's not a little bit of time, a chapter, on your birth mother and in part of that, you know, obviously, you know, the outcome in her life, the substance abuse there, the outcome is-- is different than in-- in David's life and-- and many of the things that David got to see and experience. And one of the things that struck me was David was a black sheep, like he actually came from a very structured, you know, family where people did things, went to work. I mean, things were, you know, middle class in the best sense, you know, I mean in the value sense. There seemed to be a lot more structure in his life, you know, as opposed to your-- your mother's. Have you-- do you think that accounts for, you know, a sum amount of the difference in terms of the results?
>> I mean, I just think it's-- it's about being present and that's what, you know, being sober is. He was present to parent us. And I think that, unfortunately, my mother was not. And, you know, I-- you know, I look at-- I look at our little family and like what we have done and thought about in the last couple years and like, yeah, it feels-- it feels like because he taught us things, and, you know, I think that it was really painful for my mother in writing this book. She was like how can you do this again. How can you punish me for the mistakes that I made? And so, you'll-- it's-- it's-- it's-- it's a brief aside.
>> Right.
>> And there was a version of this book, I haven't seen her since I was 13 years old, where I go down there and I investigate and see what happened to her. And I said, no, this book is about David Carr, this is about my father and who was my-- you know, my parent. And I think that while-- and it's just like-- it's-- it's still, that doesn't mean it's not painful for others.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And so, my twin reminds me to be empathic towards her and understand like this is not how she wanted it to turn out.
>> Mm-hmm. What are the rules for writing memoirs when you are writing about a loved one and there are other loved ones who are going to be in the book who are very much in the world and you want to be empathic towards them, but you want to tell your truth?
>> First, write it.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> Don't just talk about writing it.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> Ask them about what they think. Hand the book over to them before giving it to your editor. I did that and the email just came back with no response and I-- and two weeks later I was like, hey, did you get my email, and they did and so it's just about giving people time to process it and think about it and, you know, we have a word that we use in our family like is anything too spicy and what, if anything, we should remove. And there was some spiciness that may have been cut out, but a lot of it remained.
>> Yeah.
>> And like having a family that backs you and you're allowed to do that. But like don't step over the lines.
>> Right. I always felt like-- yeah, I think there's one school of, you know, memoir writing that says you just out and say what you want, and then there's another school that says your family is more important than any-- you know what I mean, like they'll be here after--
>> Well I called you and I asked Ta-Nehisi, I called and asked him, I was like, so like should I do this?
>> Yeah.
>> When I asked him-- I asked you like would-- would my dad want me to do this.
>> Yeah.
>> And you said, you know, do it, but like remember that your family has to be there on the other side.
>> Yeah, they do-- they do.
>> Like this is, you know, we all want to write and honor people but like, you know, I-- I need to have a family and like the book does not come before that.
>> Yeah, and those were his values too. Those-- those were his values. We're running close to question time. Can-- I just want to-- Jill you're right here, okay, Maddie you're right-- can you guys stand? Can we just get a quick--?
>> Yeah!
>> A quick acknowledgement. No, please, please. Please, come on. Come on. Just-- just stand. Come on.
[ Applause ]
>> I love how Jill said no.
[ Laughter and Applause ]
>> No, that-- that was as much for Erin as it is for me. David-- my relationship was not with-- just with David. David-- my relationship was with David's family. My relationship is with David's family and I can remember, as if I haven't told enough stories. I was supposed to be interviewing you.
>> You did, come on.
>> Okay, alright. Good. Thank you. You know, I was-- I can remember coming to New York and having a really really hard time, like just not-- like trying to break in and just feel like a total-- I'm-- I'm a complete failure, you know. We talk about how hard he was, you know what I mean, like when you were wrong and how, you know, good he could be when you were doing right and how proud of you. And the other thing is when you were on your ass, when you were really really on your ass and you were trying, he could be really really soft. And I have--
>> Tender, yeah.
>> Yeah, and actually compassionate, weirdly enough, like-- and I have so many so many great memories of him, you know, inviting me out-- out to the house in Monte Claire and inviting, you know, [inaudible] and Samari when they were really young, and that-- that time period, especially early on, you know, when we moved here, it was just so so important and he could not have done that, obviously, if his family were opposed to that. So, I thank you. I thank you Jill and I thank you Maddie. Thank you, guys, so much for, you know, inviting me into, you know, your household during that period, which was so important to us.
>> He would get so excited when you were coming.
>> Ta-Nehisi's coming over.
[ Laughter ]
>> No I just-- I just-- why are you being so nice to me, you know, I was going through my own stuff. It was silly, silly, silly, I was a younger person. Okay, alright, so we're going to open it up for questions. The only-- well there are two requests; the first request, we have mics here, and do we have another one here. So, we've got, you know, two mics. I have two requests; the first is don't start talking until you have the mic, because this is being recorded, I believe, and the second is please ask a question. Please please please ask a question. Don't do what I just did [laughter] and filibuster through an interview. Don't be like me. I know I've set a bad-- do as I say, don't do as I do. So, okay, let's open it up.
>> Hi, Erin. Question, in writing about David Carr or about yourself, who were you writing the book for?
>> This is a love letter to my father, first and foremost. And secondary, it is for people who may not know David Carr but I think can learn things from him, or can learn things, I mean not to-- to go from an ego place again, but to learn things from my struggles, and ultimately there is some-- some beautiful small wins on the other side of it. And I think that, you know, I really wish I had had his notes. But I think he was a very consistent presence in writing and, you know, I would-- I would often look at all of, you know, his interviews and his columns and so his sort of framework and his language was so much a part of the creative process.
>> Hi, Erin. I just have one question; do you plan to write more books?
>> Woo. I-- I have so much respect for anybody who's written a book. The amount of vulnerability it takes to put yourself out there and be like please buy it is shocking stuff. And so, I would love to write another book, but I don't think it'll be about me and my ability to shower or not shower.
[ Laughter ]
>> Well, you know, I have to say, I have so much admiration of film makers because you guys sit around for so long before the shot actually happens, like there's so much thing-- there's so many things that happen before you can actually get to the story telling, which is very much unlike writing, where you just sit down, bam, okay, now I'm in the thing, you know, and I have no idea how anyone does that, so.
>> It is the best job in the world.
>> Wow. Wow.
>> It is-- it is-- it is truly--
>> You would get an argument from me on that, but I'll-- you know, we'll agree to disagree. We'll agree to disagree.
>> I-- you know, I get to go in and talk to people more interesting than me, and then make a movie about it and like, you know, with the survivors, with At the Heart of Gold, the Larry Nassar survivors.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> I thought I was making--
>> Which is premiering Friday, right.
>> Friday on HBO.
>> Yes. And was at Tribeca.
>> Yes.
>> I don't know if this was said before we came out, but there's no harm in saying it again.
>> You know, I thought the movie was about Larry, but it made it-- I made a film about the women and I have never-- I've never experienced that and it was incredible. That was not a-- that was not part of your question, but I just hear a plug on HBO on Friday [laughter]. Who's next?
>> Hi, Erin. Thank you for writing the book. I was just wondering, you talk- -like a big theme, I think, throughout the book is grief and I was wondering if you personally think that grief is something that, you know, it's been about three or so years, three or four year since your dad passed, and I'm sorry for your loss, but do you think grief is something that you've gotten accustomed to or are you learning that like grief has a ton of nuances and it still creeps up on you in weird and unknown ways, if that makes sense?
>> Great question. Grief exists-- exists without me trying to figure it out. I think that-- and I couldn't-- the first year it-- I couldn't breathe, like it just-- it was-- it was-- it was crazy. I-- like he would be the first thing I thought about, the last thing I thought about before I went to bed and I was just like-- I asked my friends, I was like, is this normal to think about your father this much? Do you think about your father this much? And they were like, no [laughter]. You know, I loved going-- I loved hanging out with his friends who-- who like-- who cared about him. I loved, you know, the New York Times gave me his Twitter and I was like looking through his Twitter and I was like this is not good, like stop doing this. But I didn't realize that after the first year, and you start to have like sober or grief references, I can get through thanksgiving. I can get through my birthday. I can get through my movie coming out without him giving notes. You know, if I get married or have children, like that will be-- you know, those are the profound disappointments that he won't be there for. But I think that it's just-- it's just the holidays are the worst. And I-- I don't-- I don't know, I haven't figured that out yet, and so if like really thinking about that and I surround myself with people who've gone through grief in a way because like they get it. And that's not to say that people who haven't gone through this don't get it, but there is a common language and an understanding.
>> So, I'm going to move away from grief a little bit here.
>> No [laughter]. The book is about-- no, I'm joking.
>> I know. I know. But we all know that Ta-Nehisi was dragged home, one of the mentees that was brought home and introduced to the family. Was this a common practice? Were there a lot of his mentees that-- that became parts of your lives for-- at various times?
>> I just looked at Jill and she shook her head. You know, I don't need to say this but it-- it can be said, Ta-Nehisi Coates is very special.
>> Awe.
>> And--
[ Laughter ]
>> Because, what I know is he mentored a lot of people and I was like, I'm not special.
[ Laughter ]
>> Thank you. Thank you.
>> Deeply special. I mean, his ability taught-- to spot talent was profound and I think that that's something that I, you know, that I would love to be a part of, like, you know, who-- how do we-- how do we see and size up the special in others when we're so busy doing our very busy lives? How do we nurture others and like the generosity of that? And so, I'm wondering if you have anything to say about that?
>> I-- I-- I teach now and-- have I ever invited anybody; any kid into-- I-- I have not.
>> Yeah, but you teach at NYU, I understand.
>> I do. I do.
[ Laughter ]
>> Thanks for wait-listing me. No, I'm joking.
>> But you know--
[ Laughter ]
Spicy. But-- but no, like, I don't-- I don't-- I don't know. You know, David-- we talked about this before actually. This is actually just-- I had come out for the film festival and I asked you about this and you said part of it was, like I was sort of kicking myself and I still do kick myself, I'm not as giving as he was, definitely not. I-- I-- I don't know how he found time to do his work, to be a great journalist, and he was, he was a great great journalist, and to be social. I-- I still haven't figured that out. I mean, you know, the mentoring is the best part of it, but like the going to events, I like-- I just don't have the stamina.
>> You're here now.
>> I am, but I'm here--
>> You're doing it.
>> But I'm here for you, which is different. Like he would be-- I don't know, like it's not hard for me to be here for you, I mean, you're a friend, you're family, I mean that's like a no brainer, but he-- I just feel like I might have been working for David for a year before I was like at Jill's like surprise birthday party. You know what I mean. Like he had a-- it was a thing, like if he-- if he loved you he loved you and that was it and he knew it quick, you know, and I-- when he passed they did a thing at the New York Times to honor and I walked into that news room and people went up to the mic and talked and it went on and on and on and on, and I had not-- I knew he was a great mentor; I did not realize how many people he had mentored; I did not realize how many people he had helped with addiction. He was incredibly incredibly giving and I think about, you know-- because I feel like I've been given a lot, you know. And I feel like a lot of it is, you know, fortune, you know, good fortune. And giving that back is something I struggle with it constantly. I str-- I am not where, you know-- I'm not at that David Carr, you know, sort of standard, which is, you know, a really really high one, honestly.
>> You know, David Carr was very special.
>> Yeah.
>> To-- to echo what we just said about you. I mean, I think that that was-- that was, sort of this curious puzzle, this sort of arithmetic. He sleeps this much, he drinks this much coffee, he mentors this many people, he goes to the thing after work, you know, I mean--
>> And his family loves him. See most people like that, like their family, like they don't have, you know, time-- like his family actually loved him. Like there are people that are like that.
>> Well I would be G chatting him, he's like call me, I don't feel like listening to this.
>> Right.
>> You know.
>> Right.
>> There was like-- you know, I think that he-- he did find that his time was valuable.
>> Right.
>> He was able to protect it, so I don't want you to beat yourself up--
>> Right.
>> For not being able to do it.
>> Right.
>> I mean we are in the process of figuring this out, of educating ourselves, of thinking about the best right-- right action.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think that, like, if we can do it one out of the days out of the week that's-- that's a win.
>> Yeah.
>> We have to treasure the small wins.
>> Yeah. You told me something like that last time. So, I'm going--
>> Oh, I'm repeating myself [laughs].
>> I'm going to take-- no, no, it's not that you're repeating yourself, it's that I need to listen and take it-- take it to heart, so.
>> Hi, Erin. You favored my tweet when I told you that I--
>> Nice.
>> My claim to fame.
>> Nice going.
>> That I read-- I read passages from Night of the Gun to my writing students and I tell them to aspire to write like this. What can I read from your book and what other mes-- what can you tell me to impart to my students about your experiences?
>> You should read the whole book to them [laughter]. It's all amazing stuff.
>> You should read the whole book, it's not that long.
>> No, I mean, do that.
>> It's really not. Actually, you can read it pretty quick.
>> You know, I think--
>> Read it in two days.
>> So the one zero one guide, I mean, his-- his excerpt from the School of Journalism Commencement Speech, whoa, I mean that is a master class and how to do this, how to do this right, and I think that I mean what this book is about, it's about self-doubt and failure and that's what, you know, when I-- when I think about handing these over to people I work with and being like, I hope you like it, you know, it's shocking because it's a former version of myself. It's like it's-- I was so nervous about what you thought of me, how to do this, being David Carr's kid, and I am so fucking proud of it now.
>> Mm.
>> Deeply and thoroughly, and so I think that it's about figuring out self-doubt and then how-- how to bring it-- how to change that.
>> Mm. There was somebody almost jumping up and down over here, yeah, here we go, right here.
>> Hi, Erin. I'm curious to know, as a documentary film maker, did you use like a storyboard concept to help you to put your book together? Did you have a-- a process or did you just say like chronologically I'm just going to go through it and read through all my dad's emails and whatevers? How-- how did you, kind of, conceptualize to put it together?
>> So, I was going through a rough time and figuring out the book and I forget, maybe it was Pamela who was like, well why don't we just try it, like outlining, or maybe it was Meg, you know. And so we did, we storyboarded it. And then every one of those notecards I would have to outline before I actually-- before I wrote it, because otherwise it was just always stream of consciousness.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And it was not good stuff, you know. It's like, what happens in this story. What am I trying to say? And then, you know, like really cutting out the fat. I think that-- I think books often are too long, not including anybody in this room who's written one. And, you know, I think that it's like my films are short. You know, Sheila Nevins said any film that is longer than 80 minutes you have to convince me every minute. And it-- you know, I think that I take that with my writing because like I am inviting you to spend time in my skull.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> And I want you to stay there.
>> Did you see the O.J. doc?
>> Yes. Incredible.
>> Six hours, though. Wasn't it like-- did you feel like it earned every-- every minute?
>> Every single minute.
>> I agree. It was incredible. It was-- like I heard it was like six hours, I was like, no way I'm watching that.
>> Who amongst us is Ezra?
>> Yeah, no no no. And then I watched the first one and I was like give me, give me, give me more, give me more. It was incredible. It's rare you see that with a long piece of work. One more question.
>> Okay.
>> There we go. No, you got the mic, it's yours [laughter].
>> Is it on? Oh, hi. Thank you, Erin. Thank you so much for your book. My question to you is being the daughter of such a powerful, strong, dominant personality, man, it seems like you have your own identity. You're your-- you're your own person. How did you develop that?
>> Whoa.
[ Laughter ]
>> It's true though. It's true.
>> Yeah, I think my boyfriend told me the other day that I was like [inaudible] when I'm on stage, so I'm like trying to combat that with the lady outfit, you know [laughter]. It took all of 31 years to get here, I would say. You know, I think that to figuring out who you are, it's painful and it requires a lot of internal work, and honestly, I really credit sobriety. There is literally no-- zero percent shot that this book would exist if I was still consuming alcohol in the way that I was consuming it. And so, you know, really thinking about and doing the work and being present, I think-- I think lends itself and I-- I've said this for-- poor my sober friends have to hear this again, but like being sober is a super power and I get my time back, and at night when people are enjoying a cocktail, which you all should, please drink if you-- if you want to. You know, I'm working, I'm thinking, I'm typing, I am-- I am existing in the David Carr tradition.
>> Well, Erin, that was wonderful. The book is wonderful. I would be here whether you showered or not [laughter]. I just wanted to--
>> God damn it, it always comes back to that.
>> Absolutely clear about that. Thank you, guys, for coming. Erin, I believe will be signing books afterwards.
[ Applause ]
>> That was Erin Lee Carr speaking about her new book, All That You Leave Behind with Ta-Nehisi Coates. If you live in New York and you have a New York Public Library card, you can get All That You Leave Behind in one of our branches, or you can check it out on our app, Simply E. Library Talks is produced by Schuyler Swenson with editorial support from Richart Schnorr and myself and our theme music was composed by Alison Laton-Brown.